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2021 Season Contests
Contest #4: Giro d'Italia - VOTING
Contest #5: Battle of the North

Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Compete in the contests and become the best stagemaker!
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Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by emmea90 »

Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

In this topic you can vote for the Improved spring Classics, according to the following rules.

PLEASE READ ALL THE POST BEFORE VOTING

How to vote

1 - You have to judge the track according to the requirements: contests/contest-giro-italia-2021-t7405.html

2 - You have to write in a post your best FIVE routes, from worse to best, providing a brief motivation for each choice
FIFTH PLACE
(Motivation)

FOURTH PLACE
(Motivation)

THIRD PLACE
(Motivation)

SECOND PLACE
(Motivation)

FIRST PLACE
(Motivation)
How does it work?
- First choice got 6 points, second 4, third 3, fourth 2 and fifth 1 point.
- Presentation bonus grant you 3 points (we will add later with penalties who took the bonus)
- Ranking will be made according to points obtained
- In case of equality I will decide the winner
- YOU CAN'T VOTE FOR YOURSELF
- You can also comment other people's reviews regarding your or other one's routes
- YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR VOTE ONCE SUBMITTED

Who can vote?
- Every user that submitted a contest (full points vote)
- Every user in the La Flamme Rouge Staff (Emmea90, Pigna, Sagan99, Matthorse, Nasdon33, Linkinito, Bose12)
- Every user that has registered BEFORE today and has at least 10 tracks in the editor. In this case, his votes counts half of the points scale

Penalties
- Every user that submitted a contest and doesn't submit a valid vote (with 5 choices and motivations) will get a 10 points penalty for all his routes.
- It's FORBBIDDEN to ask for votes. Who will be caught public or privately asking for a vote to some users will get a 50 points penalty in first instance, then the exclusion from all the contests of the year
- Vote penalties for unpracticable routes will be assigned by staff during this phase

Requisites for the +3 bonus
- Providing link of the tour in the post
- Providing viewable image of each stage with a description in the post

Deadline for vote phase is july 3, h 23.59

Routes:
Mauro: maps/tours/view/18650 +4 bonus
Lukkier: maps/tours/view/18675 +4 bonus
Jekp: maps/tours/view/18645 +4 bonus
Benoit.guillot: maps/tours/view/18668 +4 bonus
Werfer: contests/maps/tours/view/18671 +4 bonus
AjachiChakrabarti: maps/tours/view/18654 +4 bonus
Micek_52: maps/tours/view/18758 +4 bonus
jajoejoe: maps/tours/view/18651 +4 bonus
Micchan: maps/tours/view/18686 +4 bonus
Fyr3: maps/tours/view/18732 +4 bonus
DavAndLuz: maps/tours/view/18786 +4 bonus
Giorgio.ponticelli: maps/tours/view/18743 +4 bonus
Ellvey: maps/tours/view/18785
Kanon16: maps/tours/view/18725 +4 bonus
Nebe: maps/tours/view/18757 +4 bonus
JibValverde: maps/tours/view/18810 +4 bonus
Betto: maps/tours/view/18648 +1 bonus
JoostvandeBeek: maps/tours/view/18812
Alegard: maps/tours/view/18714 +4 bonus
Diego12Alpe: maps/tours/view/18720 +4 bonus
Belgian4444: maps/tours/view/18647 +4 bonus
Jadmeal: maps/tours/view/18749
Improb: maps/tours/view/18744 +4 bonus
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by Fyr3 »

Quick suggestion for all when voting

If you are considering the elevation gain of each stage I highly suggest you import the GPX files of the stage you are looking at into a website like open runner, as it gives a much more accurate reading of the elevation gain (5000m as opposed to 8000m for instance.) The only other thing is that profile errors from tunnels I believe also add to this total (but please do correct me if they don't.)

Example here from my route:

LFR reading
Image

OpenRunner reading
Image

(those two tunnels combined probably add ~400m)
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by Micek_52 »

As usual, I used a points system for voting. There were 5 scoring categories with a maximum possible score of 30.
The categories are as follows:
  • Start and Finish (6pts) - Stage 1 must start and end in Torino (2p) , stages 2 and 3 must start and end in piemonte (2p), stage 21 must end in Milano (2p)
  • Basic tracking requirements (7pts) - Slovenia stage finish (2points, if I thought that it wasn't tracked well enough you would lose 0,5-1 point), Swiss passage (1p), Strade Bianche stage (2p - 1p if only 1-2 sectors were used), Foggia as the southernmost possible finish (2p)
  • Balancing (6pts) - I aimed for 3 ITTs and 6 of each flat, hilly, Mountain stages. One ITT could be replaced with a road stage. So 2-3 ITT's and 6-7 of each road stages. Any declinations incurred a one point penalty for each stage.
  • Flat stage rule (6pts) - 2 points penalty for each double flat stage instance
  • MTF keeping rule (5pts) - Not much to explain here. If you didn't keep at least one MTF, you would get zero points. Only keeping Campo Felice could get you 2, at most 3 points.
Now, for the votes:

1st - Lukkier - 30/30 points:
All constraints were followed, the same as with 2nd placed competitor. I prefered your tour to 2nd place because you decided to keep a different MTF than most others.

2nd - Kanon16 - 30/30 points:
All constraints followed, though Monte Zoncolan was so frequently used by everybody, that in the end it felt a bit cliche.

3rd - Werfer - 29/30 points:
Most of the constraints followed, although you didn't pass Switzerland. So that is a one point penalty, but otherwise your route - keeping 2 MTF's was very good.

4th - Jekp - 29/30 points:
Simmilar to Werfer, although your Strade Bianche stage (49km of gravel) was a bit of an overkill.

5th - Nebe - 28.5/30 points:
Also here, most constraints were followed and I like the fact that you kept 2 MTF's. The reason you couldn't place higher was the fact that you only had two instances of gravel on certain mountains and no actual Strade Bianche stage. A decisive factor in the tie for 5th was the inclusion of 3 ITT's.

6th - Improb - 28.5
7th - Jajoejoe, Micchan, Fyr3, Alegard - 28
11th - Jadmeal - 27.5
12th - AjachiChakrabarti, DavAndLuz, Giorgio.ponticelli, Diego12Alpe - 27
16th - Betto - 26
17th - Ellvey, JoostvandeBeek - 25.5
19th - Benoit.guillot, Belgian4444 - 25
21st - Mauro - 19
22nd - Jibvalverde - 18
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by Micchan »

I followed the suggestion for open runner to calculate the positive vertical meters for my route, I hope it helps

Stage 1 833 (flat stage in Piemonte)
Stage 2 3012 (hilly stage in Piemonte with punchy finish)
Stage 3 910 (flat stage with a finish in Verbania for Ganna)
Stage 4 3937 (mountain stage to go from Padania to Liguria)
Stage 5 925 (flat stage in Toscana)
Stage 6 3536 (Strade Bianche stage)
Stage 7 1592 (flat stage in Lazio)
Stage 8 190 (ITT in Frosinone)
Stage 9 4490 (mountain stage with Blockhaus finish)
Stage 10 2748 (from Adriatic to hilly Umbria)
Stage 11 2283 (Umbria to Marche for a flat finish)
Stage 12 4666 (mountain stage in the Appennine with flat finish)
Stage 13 393 (flat stage in bassa Padana)
Stage 14 1969 (flat/hilly trip to Slovenia)
Stage 15 4553 (short but hard dolomitic mountain stage)
Stage 16 3903 (mountain stage with Sega di Ala)
Stage 17 2898 (hilly stage with Lombardia vibes)
Stage 18 2114 (flat stage around the lakes who goes to Switzerland)
Stage 19 4045 (Valle d'Aosta stage with San Carlo)
Stage 20 5251 (queen stage with Fauniera)
Stage 21 145 (ITT in Milano)
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

Hello everyone,

Am I the only one who cannot view Werfer's route?
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by Micek_52 »

davandluz wrote: 08/06/2021, 16:04 Hello everyone,

Am I the only one who cannot view Werfer's route?
His link is wrong. 59@@
It should be: maps/tours/view/18671
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

Micek_52 wrote: 08/06/2021, 16:09
davandluz wrote: 08/06/2021, 16:04 Hello everyone,

Am I the only one who cannot view Werfer's route?
His link is wrong. 59@@
It should be: maps/tours/view/18671
Yeah it works now. Cheers!
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by kanon16 »

I'm sorry! I've seen I had left my Tour private..
Unlock now! :beer:
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by lukkier »

Hey,

I would like to present my votes for the 5 (in my opinion) best routes presented in the Giro competition.

1st place

- Kanon16 - In my opinion, the route was perfectly planned and presented. All the highlights of the race were very well covered and I would love to watch a race like this on TV.

2nd place

- JEkp - A route constructed with many very interesting moments. I really like the chaotic nature of the route, which is characteristic of the Giro.

3rd place

- Mauro - I like your route for the level of difficulty, which is extremely challenging. As well as on place 2 I like the variety of stages and the use of many interesting alpine passages.

4th place

-Werfer - An interesting combination of well known, legendary Giro moments with less known but also very difficult walls. A nice composition of stages that should definitely showcase the best of the best on the course.

5th place

-Micek_52 - Nicely laid out composition. I like the non-obvious stages, the fate of which will be decided by the disposition of the day of individual cyclists. A well-executed tour that would surely encourage many fans in front of televisions.

There really are a lot of routes that I liked a lot too (improb, Fyr3, etc), but unfortunately I can only award points to five routes, which I kind of regret. Hopefully everyone's vote will get proper recognition.
I wish everyone the best of luck in the upcoming competitions that lie ahead.
Greetings!
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by Micchan »

I can't seem to prefer some more than others, let alone find motivations.
I prefer not to influence the contest with random and stupidly motivated choices.
Once you have met all the requirements you are all good for me, there is no objective way to prefer some more than others.
I take my penalty siinc
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

For transparency, and because I think it’s nice to have a feedback in any case, I will post brief comment on every submission. If you think I have misjudged your/somebody else’s route, feel free to reply!

Votes

5th Belgian4444. I think your entry is good, there are nice stages like the Monte Pora and Rovereto ones. Something seems a little off though, maybe the absence of a true Dolomitic stage or of classic, high-altitude climbs (only 4 times the Cima Coppi was lower than yours, and three of those times were results of modified stages). The Forca di Pani descent might be too dangerous, too. Some arrivals have mistakes: the Treviso stage, for example, has a rail crossing in the last Km. Furthermore, I am not a big fan of the first week if I have to be honest. Last note, you sure do love the Monza racetrack!

4th alegard. In general, I think you designed a good Giro. There are however some issues I wanted to point out Sassotetto could have been taken from a more demanding side, the Valle del Sole MTF is not that hard (of course, the stage is harder in its complexity, but I think a harder monopuerto would've fit nicely in the first week). The positioning of the first ITT does not convince me as well. The Sanremo stage should see its finish line a couple of hundred meters further along the street. I like the Monte Fraiteve arrival, but it's a strage with too much positive gain; it's also a pity that Fauniera and Sampeyre are located basically 100 Km from the next climb (the final one): I would have chosen a single, hard KOM (obvious choice would be the Finestre), or two shorter climbs with steep, average gradients (the Colle del Crò-Montoso double for instance), to anticipate the MTF. I do like the Courmayeur and the short Sega di Ala stages. On a smaller note, not sure why you chose a little town like Lesina to host both end and start of a stage.

3rd improb. I think you did a terrific job. Probably best proposed Campo Felice stage of the contest, so that makes me pretty confident about the Zoncolan stage, too. The 17-18 stage due are quite similar to what I did in the area - I stand by my choice to make the second stage not as hard as yours (which is borderline too difficult, considering the previous one too), but I really dig the ending (quick backstory on my own route: I was undecided between the Passo Vezzena MTF - the one I eventually did track - and a finish in Luserna, so with a flat terrain after the Strada del Menador instead of further - though much less tough - climbing; I opted for the first as I figured it would increase gaps, in the likelihood of a last climb ridden at full speed with attacks from the start of the Strada del Menador, which I deem probable due to the gradient of the climb and the fact that the next stage is a flat one). The few negatives: although I like the Vinci stage, I think the positioning after the gravel stage may "waste" it; I don't understand the Alessandria and Clusone (and partially, Folgaria too) finish line placements; lastly, the Milano ITT is too long in my opinion (it might prevent attacks in the 20th - well designed - stage). Minor thing: I think you forgot the second intermediate sprint in the Strade Bianche inspired stage.

2nd kanon16. Nothing much to say really, good job. I like many of your ideas, as the Levico Terme stage (nice idea to put a breakaway stage between two super hard stages, but you designed it so that the final is super tricky with a technical descent and two steep hills) and the Luino stage. I am not quite sure the Crostis descent is admissible though, given the UCI overrule in the 2011 Giro. Only other negative things I can say is that I hoped for a shorter Milano ITT, and that I am not sure about the Valle Fiorita funding possibilities.

1st ellvey. Well done, it's a really nicely tracked Giro. I don't love the Foscagno, but after the Gavia it can be a tough one to climb; the Tappone Dolomitico is not as prominent as I like it to be, but in this context it fits well. Plus, I really like some stages (three notable mentions: the ones ending in Pavullo nel Frignano, Cividale del Friuli and Verona). I obviously like the MTF you kept (similar stage to the one I presented). Honestly, pretty spotless, but I would've done a shorter final ITT. I just hope that the ending in “Finocchio” is a genuine mistake, which I think it is, and not a tasteless joke (it's not a city, nor a town, it's part of Roma).

Spoiler!
The brief comments of the other routes, in no particular order

Inadmissible or borderline inadmissible routes
mauro. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?
lukkier. Valle Spluga - Alpe Motta MTF is not an amelioration of the original stage - I think it was the best designed high mountain stage of the Giro, in fact. On another note, what's with the intermediate sprints?
benoît.guillot. In my opinion, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Monte Bove (the only climb of the day) can quite surely eliminate some (if any) sprinters in that point of the race. Also, Valle Spluga - Alpe Motta MTF is not an amelioration of the original stage - I think it was the best designed high mountain stage of the Giro, in fact.
AjachiChakrabarti. Two crucial problems, in my opinion: i) you did not put enough stages for sprinters; ii) all of the high mountain stages are most likely be decided on the last KOM (besides, there are all MTFs), apart from the Ravinis stage (about which, you want the riders killed if you design a Monte Zoncolan descent).
Micek_52. Not sure how the Zoncolan stage was improved at all. I am sorry to say, but I really did not like your entry. Just an example, albeit a striking one: you say "I feel like many long sectors of unpaved roads late in a GT race is a big no no", and then proceed to insert the unpaved descent of the Finestre (super dangerous by the way) in the last mountain stage?
Micchan. The first stage was supposed to start and end in Torino.
Fyr3. Not sure how the Sega di Ala MTF was bettered. Furthermore, I think the Giro you designed is too much on the hard side: I do like many of the mountain stages if taken individually, but I think more could be done to make it more harmonious.
nebe. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?
jibvalverde. Where is the ameliorated MTF stage? (Sestola - KOM was located on top of Colle Passerino - and Montalcino - not a categorized climb, it did not have a KOM sprint in the Giro - don't count in my opinion)
BETTO. Stage 2 and 3 are both for all sprinters.
JoostvandeBeek. The Pieve di Soligo stage is for sprinters in my opinion, not a medium mountain stage; it would kind of be a bold statement to say it can put in difficulty some riders. Pity, I really liked some stages (as the Villaggio La Gioia, Urbino and Andalo - although it would have made more sense for Delebio or Colico to pay for the stage - ones)
Diego12Alpe. Waaay too hard Alps stages. Sorry but in my opinion it's not really realistic. Just think of the last mountain stage: 7 categorized climbs for a total of 72 Km of climbing, with an average gradient above 7%!
JAdmeal. Bit too many medium mountain stages too similar to each other in the first week. Not sure about the fisibility of the Monte Pratello arrival - besides, you already put the Blockhaus just a couple of days before, how many hard MTFs do you want the riders to do in their first week? My opinion is that your Giro is in general too hard, as the same considerations can be done for the second and third week.

Admissible routes, but excluded from my final ranking
Jekp. You often repeat similar terrains and similar profiles in consecutive stages. The Monte Zoncolan MTF sees a slight amelioration, but it could have better designed. Don't really dig the positioning of the white roads stage, too (too difficult end to the first week). Lastly, your Slovenian circuit is too tightly packed, or repeated one time too many (you could've skipped the Crevatini descent, which seems quite dangerous). I do like the last week you designed though. Just FYI, the HC in the Giro is only one (the Cima Coppi), and it is given to the highest point reached by the peloton in the edition of the Giro.
Werfer. I am unsure about the Forca di Papi descent. The Monte Vesso gravel, as it is, seems unpracticable (and it was the only mountain stage that could have seen GC riders in actions before than just the last climb - the Guardiagrele stage exluded, which for some reason you considered it to be medium mountain). Also, the Bagno di Romagna stage proved to be quite useless - and boring, to be honest - after the Montalcino stage (as last year the Nove Colli one did after the muri marchigiani stage), so why repeat it?
jajoejoe. In doing the route similar to the actual Giro, you repeated some mistakes that should've been corrected - the wasted medium mountain stage after the gravel one, for instance, or the too many MTFs (you even added more, in the puncheur stages - too many, too similar to each other). I am unsure about the Forca di Papi descent. I like the last couple of stages though.
Giorgio.ponticelli. Generally speaking, I like what you did. Only two things I want to point out about the profiles: only in one high mountain stage, the most difficult climb is not the last one (the Tappone Dolomitico), thus it might be difficult to see long range attacks; the white roads stage risks to be a bust with the first four sections far from the other two. The main issue is with finish line placements: the ones in Tortona, Roma, Venezia and Iseo should have definitely been drawn more carefully. Last note: being Fiastra a small city, unlikely to have the capabilities to host a stage finish, as Sassotetto is not part of its territoriality.
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by mauro »

davandluz wrote: 09/06/2021, 18:08


The brief comments of the other routes, in no particular order


mauro. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?

This is the Campo Felice stage. As I wrote in the presentation, I inserted four stretches of dirt road in crossing the Piana del Fucino, just before tackling the ascent of Ovindoli.

maps/viewtrack/429192
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

mauro wrote: 09/06/2021, 19:01
This is the Campo Felice stage. As I wrote in the presentation, I inserted four stretches of dirt road in crossing the Piana del Fucino, just before tackling the ascent of Ovindoli.

maps/viewtrack/429192
The requirement was "You shall keep a strade bianche stage in your route", not "a gravel/unpaved road stage" in general. So the setting must be Tuscanian hills, in my opinion.
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by improb »

davandluz wrote: 09/06/2021, 18:08 For transparency, and because I think it’s nice to have a feedback in any case, I will post brief comment on every submission. If you think I have misjudged your/somebody else’s route, feel free to reply!

Votes

5th Belgian4444. I think your entry is good, there are nice stages like the Monte Pora and Rovereto ones. Something seems a little off though, maybe the absence of a true Dolomitic stage or of classic, high-altitude climbs (only 4 times the Cima Coppi was lower than yours, and three of those times were results of modified stages). The Forca di Pani descent might be too dangerous, too. Some arrivals have mistakes: the Treviso stage, for example, has a rail crossing in the last Km. Furthermore, I am not a big fan of the first week if I have to be honest. Last note, you sure do love the Monza racetrack!

4th alegard. In general, I think you designed a good Giro. There are however some issues I wanted to point out Sassotetto could have been taken from a more demanding side, the Valle del Sole MTF is not that hard (of course, the stage is harder in its complexity, but I think a harder monopuerto would've fit nicely in the first week). The positioning of the first ITT does not convince me as well. The Sanremo stage should see its finish line a couple of hundred meters further along the street. I like the Monte Fraiteve arrival, but it's a strage with too much positive gain; it's also a pity that Fauniera and Sampeyre are located basically 100 Km from the next climb (the final one): I would have chosen a single, hard KOM (obvious choice would be the Finestre), or two shorter climbs with steep, average gradients (the Colle del Crò-Montoso double for instance), to anticipate the MTF. I do like the Courmayeur and the short Sega di Ala stages. On a smaller note, not sure why you chose a little town like Lesina to host both end and start of a stage.

3rd improb. I think you did a terrific job. Probably best proposed Campo Felice stage of the contest, so that makes me pretty confident about the Zoncolan stage, too. The 17-18 stage due are quite similar to what I did in the area - I stand by my choice to make the second stage not as hard as yours (which is borderline too difficult, considering the previous one too), but I really dig the ending (quick backstory on my own route: I was undecided between the Passo Vezzena MTF - the one I eventually did track - and a finish in Luserna, so with a flat terrain after the Strada del Menador instead of further - though much less tough - climbing; I opted for the first as I figured it would increase gaps, in the likelihood of a last climb ridden at full speed with attacks from the start of the Strada del Menador, which I deem probable due to the gradient of the climb and the fact that the next stage is a flat one). The few negatives: although I like the Vinci stage, I think the positioning after the gravel stage may "waste" it; I don't understand the Alessandria and Clusone (and partially, Folgaria too) finish line placements; lastly, the Milano ITT is too long in my opinion (it might prevent attacks in the 20th - well designed - stage). Minor thing: I think you forgot the second intermediate sprint in the Strade Bianche inspired stage.

2nd kanon16. Nothing much to say really, good job. I like many of your ideas, as the Levico Terme stage (nice idea to put a breakaway stage between two super hard stages, but you designed it so that the final is super tricky with a technical descent and two steep hills) and the Luino stage. I am not quite sure the Crostis descent is admissible though, given the UCI overrule in the 2011 Giro. Only other negative things I can say is that I hoped for a shorter Milano ITT, and that I am not sure about the Valle Fiorita funding possibilities.

1st ellvey. Well done, it's a really nicely tracked Giro. I don't love the Foscagno, but after the Gavia it can be a tough one to climb; the Tappone Dolomitico is not as prominent as I like it to be, but in this context it fits well. Plus, I really like some stages (three notable mentions: the ones ending in Pavullo nel Frignano, Cividale del Friuli and Verona). I obviously like the MTF you kept (similar stage to the one I presented). Honestly, pretty spotless, but I would've done a shorter final ITT. I just hope that the ending in “Finocchio” is a genuine mistake, which I think it is, and not a tasteless joke (it's not a city, nor a town, it's part of Roma).

Spoiler!
The brief comments of the other routes, in no particular order

Inadmissible or borderline inadmissible routes
mauro. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?
lukkier. Valle Spluga - Alpe Motta MTF is not an amelioration of the original stage - I think it was the best designed high mountain stage of the Giro, in fact. On another note, what's with the intermediate sprints?
benoît.guillot. In my opinion, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Monte Bove (the only climb of the day) can quite surely eliminate some (if any) sprinters in that point of the race. Also, Valle Spluga - Alpe Motta MTF is not an amelioration of the original stage - I think it was the best designed high mountain stage of the Giro, in fact.
AjachiChakrabarti. Two crucial problems, in my opinion: i) you did not put enough stages for sprinters; ii) all of the high mountain stages are most likely be decided on the last KOM (besides, there are all MTFs), apart from the Ravinis stage (about which, you want the riders killed if you design a Monte Zoncolan descent).
Micek_52. Not sure how the Zoncolan stage was improved at all. I am sorry to say, but I really did not like your entry. Just an example, albeit a striking one: you say "I feel like many long sectors of unpaved roads late in a GT race is a big no no", and then proceed to insert the unpaved descent of the Finestre (super dangerous by the way) in the last mountain stage?
Micchan. The first stage was supposed to start and end in Torino.
Fyr3. Not sure how the Sega di Ala MTF was bettered. Furthermore, I think the Giro you designed is too much on the hard side: I do like many of the mountain stages if taken individually, but I think more could be done to make it more harmonious.
nebe. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?
jibvalverde. Where is the ameliorated MTF stage? (Sestola - KOM was located on top of Colle Passerino - and Montalcino - not a categorized climb, it did not have a KOM sprint in the Giro - don't count in my opinion)
BETTO. Stage 2 and 3 are both for all sprinters.
JoostvandeBeek. The Pieve di Soligo stage is for sprinters in my opinion, not a medium mountain stage; it would kind of be a bold statement to say it can put in difficulty some riders. Pity, I really liked some stages (as the Villaggio La Gioia, Urbino and Andalo - although it would have made more sense for Delebio or Colico to pay for the stage - ones)
Diego12Alpe. Waaay too hard Alps stages. Sorry but in my opinion it's not really realistic. Just think of the last mountain stage: 7 categorized climbs for a total of 72 Km of climbing, with an average gradient above 7%!
JAdmeal. Bit too many medium mountain stages too similar to each other in the first week. Not sure about the fisibility of the Monte Pratello arrival - besides, you already put the Blockhaus just a couple of days before, how many hard MTFs do you want the riders to do in their first week? My opinion is that your Giro is in general too hard, as the same considerations can be done for the second and third week.

Admissible routes, but excluded from my final ranking
Jekp. You often repeat similar terrains and similar profiles in consecutive stages. The Monte Zoncolan MTF sees a slight amelioration, but it could have better designed. Don't really dig the positioning of the white roads stage, too (too difficult end to the first week). Lastly, your Slovenian circuit is too tightly packed, or repeated one time too many (you could've skipped the Crevatini descent, which seems quite dangerous). I do like the last week you designed though. Just FYI, the HC in the Giro is only one (the Cima Coppi), and it is given to the highest point reached by the peloton in the edition of the Giro.
Werfer. I am unsure about the Forca di Papi descent. The Monte Vesso gravel, as it is, seems unpracticable (and it was the only mountain stage that could have seen GC riders in actions before than just the last climb - the Guardiagrele stage exluded, which for some reason you considered it to be medium mountain). Also, the Bagno di Romagna stage proved to be quite useless - and boring, to be honest - after the Montalcino stage (as last year the Nove Colli one did after the muri marchigiani stage), so why repeat it?
jajoejoe. In doing the route similar to the actual Giro, you repeated some mistakes that should've been corrected - the wasted medium mountain stage after the gravel one, for instance, or the too many MTFs (you even added more, in the puncheur stages - too many, too similar to each other). I am unsure about the Forca di Papi descent. I like the last couple of stages though.
Giorgio.ponticelli. Generally speaking, I like what you did. Only two things I want to point out about the profiles: only in one high mountain stage, the most difficult climb is not the last one (the Tappone Dolomitico), thus it might be difficult to see long range attacks; the white roads stage risks to be a bust with the first four sections far from the other two. The main issue is with finish line placements: the ones in Tortona, Roma, Venezia and Iseo should have definitely been drawn more carefully. Last note: being Fiastra a small city, unlikely to have the capabilities to host a stage finish, as Sassotetto is not part of its territoriality.
As for the Alessandria stage, the finish is right ahead of a large square. It isn't exactly in the city center (Piazza della Libertà) but the one I have chosen (Piazza Garibaldi) has large and straight roads that lead to it, which are ideale to avoid crashes. I chose that finish in Folgaria because I wanted the stage to finish as close as possible to the last climb (but you're right, that's odd and I would definitely change it now). The Clusone finish again is not in the city center but it leads to a very large parking spot that's still quite close to the center and is uphill at 5% which would avoid crashes and make the final slightly more challenging.
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by Fyr3 »

davandluz wrote: 09/06/2021, 18:08 Fyr3. Not sure how the Sega di Ala MTF was bettered. Furthermore, I think the Giro you designed is too much on the hard side: I do like many of the mountain stages if taken individually, but I think more could be done to make it more
Sega di Ala stage imo was improved with a more irregular ascent of the Passo San Valentino, which had a smaller gap from the foot of the descent to the beginning of Sega di Ala, which I believe would inspire more attacking from guys like Almeida who were quite far down in GC. As for the hardness of the Giro, I do agree to some extent, although I don't think it was much harder than the real thing to be honest (easier mountain top finishes at Gerola and Abetone, less easy to make gains in GC unless you really commit to an attack with the descending stages.) However at the end of the day, I do think I rushed it a little, leading to a few long transfers and stages that didn't fit as well together, so I am happy with your critique :)

Also for Kanon's route, part of the reason for the removal of the Crostis' descent (although it was in part due to the danger of the road) was due to the unfortunate death of Wouter Weylandt earlier in the race. And a lot of the riders who protested the Crostis also happened to be riders who would gain in some sense from its removal (e.g. I believe Contador was in the leader's jersey and didn't want to take the risk.)

Edit: accidentally removed part of quote, said something about route being harmonious if I recall.
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by ellvey »

davandluz wrote: 09/06/2021, 18:08
1st ellvey. Well done, it's a really nicely tracked Giro. I don't love the Foscagno, but after the Gavia it can be a tough one to climb; the Tappone Dolomitico is not as prominent as I like it to be, but in this context it fits well. Plus, I really like some stages (three notable mentions: the ones ending in Pavullo nel Frignano, Cividale del Friuli and Verona). I obviously like the MTF you kept (similar stage to the one I presented). Honestly, pretty spotless, but I would've done a shorter final ITT. I just hope that the ending in “Finocchio” is a genuine mistake, which I think it is, and not a tasteless joke (it's not a city, nor a town, it's part of Roma).
Oh my, i didn't realise that xD I genuinely thought Finocchio was a town in the outskirts of Roma. Oh well, thank you for letting me know, should have double checked it beforehand.
I don't know if i still can correct it, but for future reference, think of it as Roma then.
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

improb wrote: 09/06/2021, 20:48
As for the Alessandria stage, the finish is right ahead of a large square. It isn't exactly in the city center (Piazza della Libertà) but the one I have chosen (Piazza Garibaldi) has large and straight roads that lead to it, which are ideale to avoid crashes. I chose that finish in Folgaria because I wanted the stage to finish as close as possible to the last climb (but you're right, that's odd and I would definitely change it now). The Clusone finish again is not in the city center but it leads to a very large parking spot that's still quite close to the center and is uphill at 5% which would avoid crashes and make the final slightly more challenging.
I wasn't criticizing the logistics at all! I think you were careful about that, but I can't mention every good point otherwise it would turn into an academic paper ahah
I was referring to the turns: in Alessandria, there's a sharp turn 100 m (maybe even less) from the finish line, but it might be an unintentional mistake; the Clusone arrival seems that if you are well positioned before the "chicane" you've already won the sprint (it reminds me of last year's arrival in Ourense at the Vuelta, I was not a fan of that).
Fyr3 wrote: 09/06/2021, 22:28
Also for Kanon's route, part of the reason for the removal of the Crostis' descent (although it was in part due to the danger of the road) was due to the unfortunate death of Wouter Weylandt earlier in the race. And a lot of the riders who protested the Crostis also happened to be riders who would gain in some sense from its removal (e.g. I believe Contador was in the leader's jersey and didn't want to take the risk.)

Edit: accidentally removed part of quote, said something about route being harmonious if I recall.
Totally agree on that, but if UCI deemed it to be unsafe, the imposition has to be removed by them in order to see it in the race again (or at least, that's what I assumed) - and we all know how good UCI are at admitting their own mistakes, right?


In any case, I am happy this modality of voting has been well-received, I hope I will have time to do so again in the future
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by nebe »

davandluz wrote: 09/06/2021, 18:08
nebe. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?
[
Non mi pare che le regole richiedessero una tappa di strade bianche ispirata a quella del giro vero, bensì di inserire almeno una tappa in cui si debbono percorrere strade bianche.
La tappa Canazei-Malaga San Giorgio del mio giro contiene un tratto di strada bianca di 15 Km potenzialmente decisivo perché piazzato nel finale di tappa e subito dopo una salita che potrebbe già aver fatto selezione, inoltre nella tappa con arrivo a Pintura ce ne è pure un altro di 5 km quindi direi che ho rispettato la regola.

Le strade bianche non si trovano solo sulle colline Toscane

English
It does not seem to me that the rules required a stage of dirt roads inspired by that of the real tour, but to insert at least one stage in which you have to travel along dirt roads.
The Canazei-Malaga San Giorgio stage of my tour contains a stretch of dirt road of 15 km potentially decisive because it is placed in the final stage and immediately after a climb that may have already made a selection, also in the stage with arrival in Pintura there is also one. another of 5 km so I would say that I respected the rule.

The dirt roads are not found only on the Tuscan hills
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Re: Contest #4 - Giro d'Italia 2021 [Cat. 1] - Voting

Post by davandluz »

nebe wrote: 10/06/2021, 15:56
davandluz wrote: 09/06/2021, 18:08
nebe. Where is the Strade Bianche inspired stage?
[
Non mi pare che le regole richiedessero una tappa di strade bianche ispirata a quella del giro vero, bensì di inserire almeno una tappa in cui si debbono percorrere strade bianche.
La tappa Canazei-Malaga San Giorgio del mio giro contiene un tratto di strada bianca di 15 Km potenzialmente decisivo perché piazzato nel finale di tappa e subito dopo una salita che potrebbe già aver fatto selezione, inoltre nella tappa con arrivo a Pintura ce ne è pure un altro di 5 km quindi direi che ho rispettato la regola.

Le strade bianche non si trovano solo sulle colline Toscane

English
It does not seem to me that the rules required a stage of dirt roads inspired by that of the real tour, but to insert at least one stage in which you have to travel along dirt roads.
The Canazei-Malaga San Giorgio stage of my tour contains a stretch of dirt road of 15 km potentially decisive because it is placed in the final stage and immediately after a climb that may have already made a selection, also in the stage with arrival in Pintura there is also one. another of 5 km so I would say that I respected the rule.

The dirt roads are not found only on the Tuscan hills
I don't quite agree with what you are saying. In Italian, the word "sterrato" is used to call gravel roads. "Strade bianche", on the other hand, are internationally and nationally associated with the Tuscanian white roads. If the requirement asked for a "sterrato" stage, I would 100% agree with you, but it asked specifically for "strade bianche", not "sterrato", nor "gravel/unpaved" in general. Thus, I do not believe you have respected the requirement, and for me your entry is not admissible.
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