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Deutschland Tour

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Möve
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Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

Hi there,

since I'm from Germany it's pretty dissappointing not to have a bigger stage race in our country. Not that Germans wouldn't be into cycling at all, but apart from football the popularity of any sports depends very much on the success of German athletes. I think it's like that in most European countries, but it seems to be more extreme in Germany. So, after not having a stage race accross the country for ten years I was really excited about this relaunched version of the Deutschland Tour, and I am still. It is short, yes, but that's ok under the circumstances. It's not that easy to find host cities, people usually don't come to you, you have to go where they are (meaning urban areas), Germans are better in sprinting than climbing and at least there is the opportunity to extend the race to even 7 days in the next years (5 are to come 2022). That's still not much, regarding that they travelled 3 weeks through Spain at la Vuelta last year and only covered half of the country (and there is a 5 days stage race in small regions like Burgos, Wallonie or 9 in Switzerland, 5 wasn't even enough for Tour of Bavaria), but let's stick to what it is.

Still, the parcours could need some improvement from a sporting view, I think. In my opinion, a lot of stages ressemble each other to much, they travel about 160k through hilly regions from one city to another, do 2 hilly local laps and finish with a sprint of sometimes 4, sometimes 40 riders. And they leave out some nice opportunities - so from the start in 2018 I created a Tour of Germany each year, which I want to present to you in the following days or weeks, now that I found this Forum - and finally the opportunity to share my work of boredom and passion! You're invited to do your own Tours accross Germany, there aren't pretty much rules about it. The tour should be one for the classic riders, that's what the organisation always tells, but they have a MTF in the black forrest next year on top of a ~15k, 7% climb, so Politt or Stuyven eg won't do it :D

I just wanted to cover a lot of regions over the years and as much as possible within in one edition. Plus I wanted to create some variety and some development through the race, having a fight for the leaders jersey on most of the stages, with the possibilty of most stages to be the decisive one and a climax at the end. And of course, you need to have one or two pure sprinting stages, because Ackermann, Greipel, Kittel, Bauhaus... [edit: actually it would be better to say "opportunities for pure sprinters" instead of "pure sprinting stages" - on a 4-day-race nothing should be for granted and in 2/3 of Germany, if you go to the south it's almost impossible to create routes without some climbs. (But it's also nearly impossible to create really hard mountain stages like in the Grand Tours or Tour de Suisse, only a small part of the Alps is German or Bavarian, and passes like around Sella, San Gottardo or Huez and Maurienne-Valley don't exist here.)] My first edition from 2018 (I saved every GPS data on my Computer before I created some proper graphics with the LFR tools lately) will be uploaded soon and I would love to have some critcs, remarks or applause from the audience.

Greets, Möve (that means "seagull" and is the name of my local bicycle club, mind the "Ö" instead of the "O" in "move" :asd: )
Last edited by Möve on 22/12/2021, 14:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Möve
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

So, this is my updated version of the 2010 Deutschland Tour. Some ideas of the original route should stay as they are: No border crossing, MTF on the penultimate day, still a fan of the start at Lake Tegernsee with this uphill prologue and a finish in Berlin plus Bonn being a major part of the route. Inbetween, some stuff had to change, because 3 of the 4 final stages being totally flat is just pointless. So the stages right before the final Sprint royal in Berlin now will be: An ITT, a hilly stage with a steep uphill finish and a mountain stage in the Harz region with a MTF on north Germanys highest mountain.

Also, I changed the MTF on the first stage in the Allgäu region. Instead, the stage now ends 7k after crossing the highest German pass route, the Riedbergpass, in a downhill to the finish in Balderschwang. This climb is not that super steep as Ochsenbergalpe, but still steep and much longer. In combination with the downhill afterwards, I hope for earlier attacks and more action on this route. On top, it's much more realistic to end the stage in Balderschwang, because the infrastructure in this village is much more fitting for an event like the Deutschland Tour if you compare it to the small path to Ochsenbergalpe.

Bonn now hosts the finish and the start of a stage race instead of an ITT, that's my alternative plan to keep the city a central part of the route. As I wanted to go further north afterwards and push the ITT one day further back, this was the alternative plan I came up with. The ITT will now be held in the very north of Germany in Frisia region, connecting the two major regional towns of Emden and Leer. Stages 3 and 6 will be much more difficult than they were originally, having some climbs in the finale on stage 3, even in the city of Bonn, and an uphill finish on the sixth day. Instead of 3 total flat stages plus 2 merely flat ones, the race now will have 2 total flat stages and 2 more that more or less could be for the sprinters, but also provide some opportunities to attack.

And here is the updated route of my 2010 Deutschland Tour: maps/tours/view/22349
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

It's time for another German race, before I will present the 2023 edition of my Deutschland Tour - today, it's all about the Black Forrest. There was also traditional race in the region, called the Regio Tour (sponsored by Brewery Rothaus), which was won by a very young Mario Cipollini or a young Jan Ullrich back in their days. The pro race was cancelled in 2008, the following junior race existed until 2012. But as the Black Forrest might be Germany's most beautiful landscape for cycling, I would be very pleased the see the race again. And this is what it could look like maybe:

The race starts in France, a detour the race often took. After leaving the pituresque town of Colmar, riders cross the Rhine and pass the beautiful village of Neuf Brisach to reach Germany after 55k. On the German side of the border, 4 rather small climbs in the volcanic region of Kaiserstuhl have to be done before reaching the finish line in Herbolzheim. More climbs are to be seen the following days: 6,2k with 8,5% on a MTF up to Sand on the second stage are the first real test for the GC contenders. There are also some smaller climbs to be done before the MTF, which is located in the northern part of the Black Forrest.

On day 3, riders go back south for the final two stages. Stage 3 finishes in Schiltach, where we already saw a stage departure in last year's Deutschland Tour. In Schiltach, the company Hansgrohe is located - you surely recognize the name, especially if you connect it with the word Bora. There are some climbs to be done, but the final is not too hard. We could possibly see some attacks, or a restricted bunch sprint. But the decisive stage is going to be the final MTF at Black Forrests highest peak, the Feldberg. The climb is 11,6k long and only 5,4% steep in average, meaning the penultimate climb to Notschrei is definitvely harder. However, the middle section of the Feldberg is harder than the the rest and provides some opportunities to attack. There we would probably see the decisive moments of the whole race. And in the middle of the stage we pass the Rothaus Brewery - which is not only the main sponsor of the race, but pretty famous in Germany.

I hope you like it! Here's the whole plan: maps/tours/view/22752

Next, I'll try to plan an alternative route only using the cities hosting stages at the 2023 Deutschland Tour in real life. I'm already planning those, as well as my own version, but there is still one spot open. Already known is the following plan: Prologue St. Wendel, 1st stage St. Wendel-Merzig, 2nd stage Kassel-Winterberg, 3rd stage TBD-Essen, 4th stage Hannover-Bremen. Let's see what we can do with that! My own Deutschland Tour will be released in summer. I plan coming back to Freiburg, have a trip to the Alps and start in the Berlin region.
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by BETTO »

I like your tour! I'd like to see your entries in the contest! :beer:
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Möve
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

Thank you for your compliment! I had one entry in the TdF Contest 2022, that was a lot of work, but the contest was never finished :mrgreen: but still, if I have time and an idea for a new race, I will compete :) however, I recognize that what I like most about creating a race is finding a new structure completely on my own and being creative, so the more rules there are for a race, the less I'm attracted to the contest - e.g. there's no need to visit every German speaking capital (so even Vaduz) in a German Tour Contest imho.

That being said, I now present my idea of how I would have done the 2023 Deutschland Tour, only using the same cities the real route does. The reasons I wanted to do this are, that the race starts in my home region and I wanted to do some speculation, how the final route will actually look. Now the organisers were quicker than me - and the races look quite similar, to be honest. Actually, there's nothing much to change: A Prologue is a prologue, Merzig is just located in a hilly region and has this climb to Eller Weg right at the edge of the city, Winterberg is located on top of a hill and Essen and Bremen are rather, if not to say completely flat.

So: Stage 1 is a little bit harder than the original one, with 2700 vertical meters instead of 2000. The finish stays the same. Stage 2 doesn't have this easy MTF like in the original version, but a shorter and steeper climb 8k before the finish line and a merely flat run-in to the finish. Stage 3 also became harder than the original one while still favoring the sprinters. In the original version, there should be a small uphill finish, I changed that and added two small climbs in the final lap instead. And stage 4 is completely flat in the original version - while I was looking for some small climbs on an additional local lap in northern Bremen to provide at least some small opportunities for a GC fight on the final stage. From km 145 to 176 with then 20k to go to the city center there will be 11 uphill sections with climbs which are like 200-300m long an 3-5% steep - still a day for the sprinters probably, but some riders can have a try!

I did all of this to have more attacks throughout the race, while there could still be a fight for the overall win on all of the 5 days. I'm afraid that in the real race, there will only be attacks on the first stage and an uphill sprint on the second one and than the GC is merely done. What I can't change is the big transfers the riders have to do. Before stage 2, they have to travel by bus for 5h from Saarland to Winterberg, before stage 4 there will be another ride for 3h from Essen to Hannover. That's way too much, if you ask me, and numbers proof that (as you can see in a Tweet by Alon_Rheinruhr from April 26th). As you can see, I don't like this Deutschland Tour very much this year. My very own version going from Potsdam to Freiburg will be posted in July or August, and I hope I can eliminate all this flaws, although I also need two bus travels of 2h.

Finally, you can compare the Deutschland Tours. This is what the organisers of ASO und Gfr did: https://www.deutschland-tour.com/de/strecke

And here is what you get if you merge their plans with my ideas: maps/tours/view/22961
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

It’s time again! While we’re watching Le Tour, the Deutschland Tour is also getting closer. And so, I’ll present my version of the 2023 edition, which will start in a few weeks. The character of the race remains the same, but we’ll see some significant changes in the new edition. Most important: We’ll be in the Land of Brandenburg for the first time, completing the German Lands after six years of racing. The Grand Depart is in the capital city of Potsdam, located next to Berlin (which was our finish in 2019 and is part of the route on stage 1 this year, too, but doesn’t belong to Brandenburg although being completely surrounded by it). From there, we’ll travel completely across Germany to finish the race in the same city as last year: Freiburg im Breisgau. The reason behind that is the idea of having a region to be specially committed as a partner of the race, just like the Land of Thuringia in the real edition. This role would also fit to the Black Forrest in my imagination - and this region is my favorite one in Germany to ride a bike. In my opinion, the climbs are way more interesting than in the Bavarian Alps – which are still great though – and I love the countryside. That’s why I already plan to be in the Black Forrest in 2024 once again. Also, we’ll visit a neighbour country for the very first time, because the route heads towards Austria on the penultimate day. That’s great on the one hand but also necessary on the other hand because one can only reach this side of the final climb up to Riedbergpass (the highest Col on tarmac in Germany) by going through Austria for 20k. Also, we’ll be back in Thuringia for the first time since 2019 on the second day and there will be the return of an ITT on stage 3.

Just like last year, we’ll have five days of racing. The idea of the competition is to have a battle for the GC lead on any day. That doesn’t mean having a fight between the GC contenders every day – but a possible change in the lead after any stage. We’ll start with a stage that is completely designed for pure sprinters, followed by another stage for the fast men – but with far more obstacles and a pretty technical route in the final, which favours a different type of sprinters compared to stage 1 or even the puncheurs. The short ITT (6.3k) afterwards on the first of two days in Bavaria will turn around the GC once again, before having two chances for the climbers and Ardennes specialists to take control of the race. For the first time in this race, there won’t be any MTF or uphill finish this year, each finish straight will be flat. That means, climbers can’t wait for the final k to make a difference but have to attack earlier. Allrounders will get their chance, if they can keep up with the climbers on the mountains or fight back in the downhill. As always, bonus seconds can be crucial – just like the seconds gained or lost in the ITT.

So, before we get to the stages in detail, let’s see what the touristic highlights are in this edition. First of all, we’ll see Berlin and Leipzig (once again), the two biggest cities in the former GDR. We’ll also cross the bigger cities of Potsdam and Freiburg, which also have significantly more than 100.000 inhabitants and are worth a visit. In Potsdam for example, we’ll see the Palace of Sanssouci – a German version of Versailles, sort of. The western part of Berlin with Grunewald forest and Lake Wannsee will be part of the first stage, just like the hilly regions of Fläming Heath and Düben Heath. Harder climbs of this edition will be found in the uplands of Vogtland and Thuringian Forest on stage 2, the Allgäu Alps on stage 4 and Hegau and Black Forest on stage 5. Also worth a visit are the towns of Neumarkt (stage 3), Landsberg, Kaufbeuren and Kempten (stage 4) and just basically everything that is located in the Allgäu mountains, where the finish of stage 4 will be held, just like the Lake Constance and the villages at its shore (I would specially suggest Meersburg). Lake Ammersee (stage 4) is great, too; Gera (stage 2) and Wittenberg (stage 1) also look nice, but I haven’t been there.

Map
Image

Route overview
maps/tours/view/23252

Summary
Stage 1 is pretty short, flat and fast. The two KOM climbs are either very short or not steep at all, but we’ll have a jersey to fight for. At least the climb to Rabenstein has cobbles and a steep section, if I’m not mistaken. The finish is set to Bad Schmiedeberg to honour the 100th anniversary of the “Radfahrerdenkmal” (cyclist’s memorial), which was set here in 1923.

Stage 2 also starts flat but reaches the climbs of Vogtland in the second half. 5 KOM climbs provide some opportunities for attacks despite being not too hard. The final lap is a special task: It goes up and down all the time (Bonus sprint after the first short uphill section), we have a lot of narrow roads and turns as a final obstacle for the sprinters.

Stage 3 is the first ITT since 2019. It’s only 6,3km long, has a small climb in it and starts and ends in the old town of Neumarkt. The GC will surely change after this.

Stage 4 is our day in the Alps. Starting next to Munich in Fürstenfeldbruck (where the Munich attacks in 1972 ended in disaster) we’ll travel through Bavaria, riders master three smaller climbs in the middle section (two of them categorized) before reaching Austria and the final climb to Riedbergpass. This is the easier side, having a long approach and reaching the bottom of the climb at already 1100m. The 4k at 8% slope will pre-decide this race, but there are still 18k to go to the finish line in Sonthofen.

Stage 5 will finally crown our winner. It’s a hard, long day through Black Forest with over 5.000 meters of climbing, where riders will do four KOMs of the hardest category in the middle section (so the fight for the KOM jersey also will be decided on this day) before the downhill to Freiburg once again. When they reach the final lap for the first time, there’s still 30k of racing, so climbers need to make a difference in the middle section of the stage. If they haven’t yet, it’s time for the classic specialists now. Each of the local laps contains a 500m, 8% climb which is 5k before the finish line – so the GC leader must fight until the finish.
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

Hey guys, I could need some advice: after following the discussions around the track of the World championships in Glasgow I had a fresh look at the final lap in stage 2 and I'm uncertain how the riders would react if the race really got there.

This is the final lap:

After crossing the finish line for the first time, there are 5k left through the old and hilly town of Bad Lobenstein. The home straight is located on one of the broad and main streets of the town. Right after the finish line, there's a first turn and riders have to go uphill, reaching the bonus sprint located in a housing area. After a sharp turn left the road leads steeply downhill, reaching the main street again. After another short climb at the main street, there's a left handed turn into a twisty narrow road with a merely flat run followed by the next short climb. Shortly after the top, there's a short cobbled downhill sector, followed by two turns and some more cobbles (again only for a few metres going over a small bridge). The final kilometre starts on a twisty, narrow road with slopes between 2 and 5 percent. At the end of the uphill section, there will be four turns on broad and smooth roads before reaching the final straight.

To see what it looks like, I collected some of the footage I could find on Google Street View.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rh5pf33y ... j992n&dl=0

As the race only starts in a few weeks and I want to keep everything realistic, there won't be any fundamental changes if you don't appreciate the lap. Maybe I will cut the twisty narrow road, which would cause the next problem of a very short final lap, having less than 3k. Or I have to cut the final lap totally.
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

Still some time to go until this year's Deutschland Tour but I thought it might be time to present some fresh new races - at least for you they will be new, in my books they are for ten years or more by now, but I still like them. Once in a year, I created a World Championship competition in a different way. I always thought, what about a WC for stage racers? So I created courses in Austria, France, Japan, Italy, Belgium, Spain, the US and of course Germany. The objective is to unite the different disciplines of road racing in a short stage race in order to find the World champion amongst GC specialist - and an aditional champion in the respective disciplines.

So each of these races consist of a Team Time Trial, an Individual Team Trial, a mountain top finish, a flat and short race for sprinters and a classical WC course to find the champion of one-day classics. The GC will be done via time-splits, just as usual. The host won't be a city any more, but a region or small country (e.g. Tyrol in Austria, Provènce in France, Veneto in Italy, Upper Bavaria in Germany or Mount Fuji region in Japan. As this is a Deutschland Tour thread, I won't present all of the races but only a small selection of the one in Germany and Austria as well as the Provènce one. Maybe I will publish the other ones later in a different thread. (Japan is really cool and I don't neet to talk about Italy, do I? Also the races in Belgium and Lithuania - did that too after I visited Vilnius once - are a little bit different, because there are no possibilities for a proper MTF)

There we go!

We start with the 2008 version in Tyrol. Not much to explain I guess. Stage 2 ends atop the panorama street in the Zillertal, the climb will be done three times. The classic one-day race ends in Seefeld and features a climb with 350 vertical meters in the final lap that has to be done four times, for the final time 14k before the finish line.

https://la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/tours/view/24142

My 2009 WCs are held in the Provènce. Of course, the big climb will be the Mont Ventoux, which has to be done three times from Bedoin. Some remarks on the sprint race and the classics race: Those laps have to be done multiple times. 40 times for the sprint race, so it's just like a criterium. And 13 times for the classics race in Toulon. Btw: Today I would do a little different course in Toulon, don't know why I made it so overly complicated. But for now, I'll stick with it.

https://la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/tours/view/24171

And this is my version from 2014, where the race should have taken place in Germany. Both time trials take place in Munich, the sprint race will feature a lap around Lake Chiemsee, and sprint race and mountain race will be flipped. Basically, there's no rule for the order of the race, e.g. in Italy I went ITT - Sprint - Mountain - TTT - Classics, in Lithuania i went Mountain - TTT - Sprint - Classics - ITT. The classics race here in Bavaria will feature a 1k, 14%-climb, which has to be done nine times.

https://la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/557934

Ah, an 25 nations will qualify for the race, each team consists of 8 riders. I always thought of the best 20 nations in UCI world ranking plus the best nation left from North America, South America, Asia, Africa and Australia. For 2023 that would mean: BEL, DEN, SLO, GBR, FRA, ESP, NED, ITA, AUS, USA, SUI, POR, COL, NOR, GER, AUT, IRL, CAN, KAZ, NZL, ERI, ECU, MGL and PAN would be in, plus POL, because I couldn't find another nation from Oceania behind AUS and NZL. Luxemburg (Jungels), Slovakia (Sagan), Hungary (Vallter) and South Africa (Meintjes) would be out, but I could live with that. 30 teams with 6 riders or 28 teams with 7 riders could also be a possibility.

So, this is it for now. Looking forward to present you some more races, but I don't know what to do next yet. The 2024 version of my Tour of Germany will be presented during Le Tour, just as usual. I already know about the start in Stuttgart, after the Deutschland Tour already went there twice irl I also thought this would be proper host city. I'm already pretty sure about visiting Wuppertal and finishing the race in Northern Germany next to the coast. Also, there will be a parallel to this years Tour irl, because I also plan to have a stage finish in Saarbrücken, which will host the final stage of the real race.
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by tank05psp »

I don't think doing the Mont Ventoux three times is a great idea. It is way too hard! Doing it twice is hard enough to make significant selection between the riders.
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Re: Deutschland Tour

Post by Möve »

Well, depends on what you mean by "too hard". I'm sure professional cyclists can do that generally, especially as the race is only 150k long. And the mountain stages are meant to be super hard, as they need to outweigh the 60 or 70k of TT in each edition, the Classics race isn't always hard enough to make a difference between the GC contenders. I actually haven't made up a concept for time-limits. Basically they are not necessary, because each of the races should be seen as a stage AND a one-day-race at the same time, so we don't want to have big influences among the stages. Won't be possible to avoid all of them, because tactical issues in terms of GC matters will likely influence the Classics race, for example. But the sprint should not be decided by who is the freshest after a hard day in the mountains. I guess there still is a need for a time limit, but i reckon it could be 1.15h or 1.30h for the Ventoux stage.

btw, I'm working on two more partly German stage races right now, actually they will be Euregio races, connecting multiple countrys (Germany will always be a part)
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